Nature's God

This is in response to the question by cclendenen:
that he posted in his thread Deism and the problem of evil viewtopic.php?f=13&t=404&p=2170&hilit=intervention#p2170

However this is not a new topic as we had discussed this in

What is the origin of the opinion, which most modern web-posting dogmated Deists, are seen saying like ?

They are dogmated because at every place they say it as dogma of their deism. The reason, crtical analysis of the universal evidences in support of that are never revealed.

All the great deists of the past e.g Socrates, other great Roman philosophers including stoics, Al-Kindi, Ibn-Hazm, Ibn Al-Nafis, John Locke, Edward Herbert Herbert: the Father of English Deism, Thomas Paine etc. repeatedly show evidences of interventions of God because they loved God and had reasons that God loves us. The minimum of love is observance, watchfulness relationship. His love is seen from the abundant benovelant blessings especially from the realisation that we have been granted the unique status of the princely creation.

The origin of the notion that Deists considered God to be un-interventionist or distant from His princely creation, which may be due to any reason such as His being uninterested or uncaring is the effect of propaganda and forgery of works of Deists to malign Great Desits & Deism, that we saw in [b]Anti-Deists: Idolatory Catholic Church & Universities
Anti-Deists: Idolatory Catholic Church & Universities
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=139

Evidences of Intervention of Our Creator Who Loves us more than our Parents...He created love in the heart of our mothers

1- Universally Accepted Notion of Our Evolving Universe Evidenced by Science Is a Testimony to the Continuation in His Action of Creation: Intervention
We included it in NG thread "Draft a Message to Texas Freethought Convention viewtopic.php?f=8&t=303"



Evolution towards improvement is like the process a teacher first teaches alphabets and then the knowledge of aphabets creates an ability to take the student to the next step of writing and creating lierature. Elements of matter are seen necessary before inorganic compounds can appear and simple inorganic world is a stage necessary to build complex organic world. so the evidence of Creation is not just a one step but a continuous phenomena where first the platform for the next step is created which becomes foundation for the next stage and the next stage perfects and becomes springboard for the subsequent development....

God creating a world in onestep that can sustain itself without further intervention or assistance from God is a fantasy... It is old Idolaroy concept of God creating minor gods that some how takes some functions of God and also get their agents from selected human beings who claim that since God has left this world to some smaller gods you have to first go to smaller gods and if they are happy the God will be automatically happy.
THIS IS ALL NON-SENSE Called Mythology



2-Human Free Will Necessitates Continuous Supervision & Management



We discussed it before in



So free will is the ability to independently make intentions of good or bad, i.e reasonable, virtuous, constructive, in harmony with nature or destructve to disrupt nature. Now considering that God will delegate all His Supreme knowledge and control to some system that can run itself without His help is Pure Idolatory concept that God is delegating His control to mythical gods who run our world.... A Pure Blame on Pious Our Past Beloved Deist Souls

As for as the ability of God is concerned to create smaller gods and delegating them His supreme knowledge, intelligence and power there is no question that God can surely do that... However our problem is that all evidence is against it... whatever has come in our experience in our common observations or in laboratories or in the distant galaxies is all encounters with slaves, creations...bound in their natural endowed characteristics and can not cross the divide of limited ability as a creation to infinite abilities of THE ALL POWERFUL LOVING & BENOVELANT CREATOR - Focus of Our Love and Attention

3- Everything Is Connected Across the Universe - Entangled (touching)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jh8uZUzuRhk

Ok Eshan, I will give you reasons I believe God doesn't intervine.Just opinions, no science to back it up. First of all I think God set up laws of nature so this world and universe could run itself so it doesn't have to intervine. God also gave us free will on purpose, not to corrupt it. So many events in history which would have called for intervention,but none happened. Why would God answere prayers for a new job, but leave the homeless ladies on the street unanswered? Answering prayers takes opportunities away from others unfairly,denotes that God is changing its plans. Why would God change its plans on our whims? If God was continously intervining this would make God our servant.I don't think this means God isn't watching or doesn't care, just the opposite.I think God wants us to learn from our mistakes and make our own ways in the world.I know it may seem at times God is answering prayers, but I believe it is us tapping into the energies all around and within us. There's a lot we don't know about theses energies still.I also believe these energies came from God as it created all.I think God watches us and cares,not unlike a parent who let's us learn the hard way. Sometimes that's the only way we learn.

Paine was a political animal, and he wrote for his audience - colonists, mostly Christian, who needed inspiration at a difficult time during their struggle for independence. I am not sure that we saw in The Crisis the same Paine we saw in Age of Reason.

I go with what makes sense to me. If God intervenes, then Epicurus has completely valid questions.

Thanks for sharing your reasoning. Deism is a wonderfully big tent. We can have differences of opinion, and yet we all claim Deism at the core. Our belief system is a fiery jewel, beautiful and enduring, with many facets. We can study it for years, and every time we look at it from a new perspective, it reflects something new, something we had not seen befor.

Eshan, let me first say I think you are a little more intelletual than I, so bear with me. This is a case where noone really knows the facts, so these are only opinions I hold steadfastly to. I see in nature that everything is structured to a t. I believe God intentionaly so it wouldn't have to intervine.Not to say it can't,just doesn't have a need to.I think God had a plan for inteligent life to form through the process of evolution and provided the necessary information for that to happen.I'm not sure if it knew what form that would take.I see a noninterventionast God because so many things in history would have neccistated it if that were the case. Why was Hitler allowed to cause such devastation,why does genocide continue in Darfur,why does God allow nature to be so destructive,why was man able to dream up destructive technology etc. If God intervined,I would see these would been some of the cases he put to task.People all over the world pray for urgent things just to go unheard,while someone claims God answered their prayers for a new job or a husband.In order for God to answer some prayers,it would be taking away anothers (who is just as worthy and maybe even more so)opportunity. I don't think God has individual plans, but if he does,I really don't think he would change those on someones whim.God knows better what we need than us.I think intervining would take up so much of Gods time,even though infinate or eternal.Constantly intervining IMHO would make God a slave to humanity, and I don't believe that's what it has in mind:)

Free will: I don't see any reason why God would give us free will if it intended on constantly correcting us.That seems pointless. Again, why wasn't Hitlers free will suspended,or George W. Bush,or John Wayne Gaceys, or Mansons, or the 9-11 hijackers etc,etc.Again I see free will as another evidence of a self regulating system.Plus, I also hate to think that if someone says a prayer that required me to play a part that God would oblige and tamper with my free will! All because someone prayed for it!

Didn't you accept my following little request:



It would save you from repeating the dogmas again and again that you have read from forged books distorting works of great Deists and are repeated milliontimes every hour by webposting so called qualified +/- dogmated deists.

Look,I haven't read a lot of Deists books to arrive at their conclusions of dogma.The things I've stated are beliefs I truely hold and those are the reasons why.I just don't see a God who provides for some and not others.An interventionalist God makes no sense to me what so ever! This would indicated a flawed and predujiced God.I've never had a prayer answered. I just don't see a God who picks and chooses among its creation.I hold these beliefs and they are mine! I never believe something because someone tells me so-ever! If that were the case I wouldve long ago turned born again christian-as I've had enough come at me!

Time to lighten up, Ehsan. Everyone gets to share. All members get to state their reasons. No one is required to believe what anyone else believes. Required belief is dogma. When someone explains, it is certainly acceptable to try to present your beliefs and elaborate on why you feel the way you do, but be careful. Persistence can turn to annoyance, especially if you just post the same thing over and over.

Thank you.

The only reason I reposted my position seemingly repeatedly is because Ehsan tracked me down,reposted his whole stance on intervention on a thread I tried to start, and asked me to elaborate on my stance. If instead of bashing my opinions he gave his answer to my responses we could get somewhere.

Ehsan,

Evolution does not require intervention by God because the rules are already in place. Natural selection and random mutations work together over time to improve the veracity of a species. DNA records and implements nature's successes so subsequent generations will have the most successful blueprint for life. That, to me, is God's fingerprint. God has designed a system that can self correct. I think that is testimony to the brilliance of the Creator, but not intervention.