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 Post subject: A-theists who believe in God
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 6:17 am 
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We do not believe in the Theist God. We are not Theists. We are a-theists, i.e. non-theists.

We believe in God, but we have a problem defining that God to others. We are not required to accept someone else defining our God for us. When we allow other people to do that, they build our God out of straw and knock him down. Such a straw man God is not the God I believe in.

I find it easier to tell people what my God is not than what my God is. That makes sense. The God I am trying to understand is probably beyond my comprehension. We are talking about God, after all. How do I describe the incomprehensible? How do I describe what God is?

Let's go back to the classical arguments. How do we prove that God exists? We cannot, of course. How do we prove the incomprehensible? What about the arguments for the existence of God? If you examine the arguments closely - the ontological, the cosmological, the teleological - they all have weaknesses, and they all fall short of proof. That does not mean that these arguments fail completely. Counter-arguments also fail. It is just as difficult to prove that God does not exist as it is to prove that God does. And no, I do not agree with the assumption of Atheism.

So faith must substitute for proof. Faith is the tool of the Theist. How do A-theists use faith? We base our faith on reason, common sense and intuition, just like common folk do everywhere. Our God does not demand unquestioning faith.

All of us use faith all the time. We cannot get through life without faith. We would die of worry or just sit and starve, paralyzed with fears and phobias. We have faith that day will follow night. That is a reasonable faith that we have tested throughout our lives. We have faith that the law of gravity and other natural laws will work tomorrow as they worked yesterday and today. We examine the evidence, and we have no problem reaching the conclusion that reasoned faith works for us. To what extent does that faith work? It varies from individual to individual. We have varying ways of reasoning, and we intuitively reach different conclusions. And for us, a conclusion does not mean the end. We don't stop examining evidence just because we've achieved the realization that what we believe has a name. Realizing that we are Deists usually signals the start of a new quest for meaning. We find that there is a path we may choose to pursue, rather than broadly sampling all belief systems in an attempt to find a fit, and that can be an exciting realization. When we try on Deism, we find that it is a loose and comfortable fit, not too tight or restricting. We should walk about in those clothes for a while.

How do A-theists relate to Atheists? I think we relate to reasonable Atheists much as we relate to fellow Deists. Atheists don't believe in the same God we do, but neither do most other Deists believe in God the same way. Their concept of God is their own, just as we think it should be. We are Freethinkers; we cannot deny others the opportunity to believe what they choose, free from dogma and religious authority. We believe that what we believe should not contradict science and the natural laws. What we believe should not contradict our experiences and what we observe. We are guided by our consciences, nor by what some other person claims to be the dictates of God, passed down through some special person or group or class of persons. We doubt any claim presented without evidence. What we believe, we choose.

What do we not believe? We do not believe that many people have found the ultimate truth. In fact, if a person has discovered the ultimate truth, it is probably valid for only that person. That's why special revelation doesn't work for us. Whatever truths that may be revealed through special revelation are true only for the person to whom those truths are revealed. Why would a Deity play favorites like that? Why would anyone want to worship such a Deity, except out of fear? Why would any Deity deserving of worship ever demand to be worshipped?

We Deists are doubting types, but we defend what we do believe, because, as long as we do not infringe on the rights of those who believe differently, we have a right to believe as we choose. When we seek to deny that same right to others, we should rightly be called hypocrites. A-theists and Atheists alike reject fundamentalism, and that includes fundamentalist Deism and fundamentalist Atheism.

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 Post subject: Re: A-theists who believe in God
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:50 am 
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Well written...

Not much going on around here lately, I think you've managed to steer most of your own traffic towards the PD forum... ;)

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 Post subject: Re: A-theists who believe in God
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:57 am 
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I've been calling myself an A-theistic Deist for years. Most people just look at me like I'm an idiot. It's nice to hear from someone who knows what I'm talking about. :D

seanpmc1 wrote:
Well written...

Not much going on around here lately, I think you've managed to steer most of your own traffic towards the PD forum... ;)
It goes in cycles. It'll pick up. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: A-theists who believe in God
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:34 pm 
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Location: Cedar Park, TX
The honest answer is that the most I have been able to do is respond lately rather than initiate things. In Real Life I am starting my own new business, and I am still working behind the scenes promoting the new book. I am planning two new books. I have been working on the charter for Unified Deism, and we have been conferencing every couple of weeks. I have watched Nature's God, and it has often been quiet. I have let it be. If it needs me to survive, then it isn't maturing as a community.

Having said all that, I do care very much about our fellowship, and I will start making sure I don't neglect things here for so long.

Thanks for the comments. This essay is the foundation for a presentation I hope to make at this year's Texas Freethought Convention. The convention is mostly Atheists, so I want an attention-getter. That's why I am starting early.

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 Post subject: Re: A-theists who believe in God
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:33 pm 
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cclendenen wrote:
I will start making sure I don't neglect things here for so long.


I wasn't referring to you in particular, you seem to be on here at least once a day, and I usually am too. I was just making the observation that more people seem to be going straight to PD now. I had been wondering lately if you were actively promoting PD in order to eventually combine the two forums. (Less work for you)

The constant influx of new people over at PD is a positive sign, but it also results in the same old questions and debates popping up constantly. As a result, I only comment on new things that interest me, and that isn't happening much lately. Maybe I should think up something extremely abstract as a joke and see how much confusion I can cause over there... ;)

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 Post subject: Re: A-theists who believe in God
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 5:28 pm 
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seanpmc1 wrote:
cclendenen wrote:
I will start making sure I don't neglect things here for so long.


I wasn't referring to you in particular, you seem to be on here at least once a day, and I usually am too. I was just making the observation that more people seem to be going straight to PD now. I had been wondering lately if you were actively promoting PD in order to eventually combine the two forums. (Less work for you)

The constant influx of new people over at PD is a positive sign, but it also results in the same old questions and debates popping up constantly. As a result, I only comment on new things that interest me, and that isn't happening much lately. Maybe I should think up something extremely abstract as a joke and see how much confusion I can cause over there... ;)

I think it may be a factor of opening up PD to the outside world. Most forums used to be visible only to registered users. Dad agreed to open up most forums to public view. It has had some influence. I have always had NG open to the world.

It's not better or worse, just different.

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 Post subject: Re: A-theists who believe in God
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 6:06 pm 
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We had this topic discussed quite in detail once, a quick draft copied in the following was prepared for 2009 Free Thought convention.

Now this new thread has been started without even mentioning that although it was requested that members are invited to continue this initiative and to help by identfying its mistakes, making corrections and improvements or confirming it as a garbage and deleting it.

The special thing in this try that may be noticed is that only direct universal frequently encountered natural observations has been used and all far fetched or multistep arguments burdonsome on human mind have been avoided. This was an endeaver to revive the Deist style of convincing writing that spreads like wildfire. Thomas Pain seems one of the modern masters of this style. This style always keeps readers attached to the evidences themselves and even the writer slips out of the discussion. Readers feel compelled to face themselves the answers from the evidences that they come across on daily basis or they carry in their instincts, ethics and consciencious hearts. Modern deists need to revive this style.. but it obviously needs much home work that you start writing when you can not control your heart brimming with its call.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=303

Quote:
Why Deists Acknowledge God?
Deists do not care about the names; they focus on how the phenomena witnessed in nature bear signs of attributes of design and Supreme mind. They frequently explain how our human reason and ethics demand that these inferences must be acknowledged.

Deists do not blindly acknowledge any hearsay about nature or the nature’s God. We appeal to open minded free thinking people to look at the evidences of order, coherence, a single, integral organic system and signs of intelligence and think about why should these not point to confirmation of the hypothesis of a Supreme mind behind them. Deists never shy away from looking at anything that has been confirmed from the last 150 years of overall general or specific analytical observations of science. In general they pose a question how the universally attested tender care that humanity receives in the lap everyone affectionately calls Mother Nature could come about without any intention, decision, plan and design?


Blind religious adherents may use the same word God, however one should not be deceived by the words, names, or labels. The attributes of the two conceptions are worlds apart. Deists derive all attributes of the Supreme manager from revealed evidences in His created nature and have been enthusiastic to explain with reasons. False religions do not even give such right to any laymen to ask questions about evidences for the sayings of priests and popes. Their description of their objects of worship, some ungod, with fabricated conflicting attributes can be anything but the Supremely Intelligent, Just, Benevolent, and All Powerful God deists attest. They use their ungod, through forged tales, to indoctrinate humans to dump reason, close their eyes, avoid self-respect and equal status all focused to pick pockets of the laymen.

It is an opportunity to briefly review just some of the reasons why deists are convinced of a Supreme Intelligent Cosmological Management that in short form the name the benevolent God.

A General Overall Observation
Continuous journey towards perfection, the evolution, is universally witnessed. This is ongoing improvement and is not business as usual or just reshuffling, it is development; a continuity in creation, imparting the creation over and above what that they got at creation. How on earth a process which results in the appearance of Socrates can be accepted as random interactions and mindless fluctuations?

An Analytical Examination
Lately each of our body cell is seen as an independent miniature national state with constitutional government through strict law enforcing. Integral to that is the finding that it cannot continue its life function without a control manager, the nucleus. Similarly there is consensus that all our cells in their specific organs coherently function as slaves of a king- our conscious and unconscious mind. Now evidences of order, integral organic working system and signs of intelligence, similar to the living cell and organism when observed in the universe must make a strong case for a control centre with intelligent mind.

Deistic Tradition of Being Humbleness in Submission to Evidences
Newton could easily have touted his intelligence while presenting his theory of gravity that he devised the theory first and found the evidence later in falling apple. He humbly expressed that his close observation of the natural phenomena inspired him the natural law.

Deists try to continue this tradition and bow in respect of evidence and turn wherever it leads.
Scientists learn from nature to split water
August 17, 2008
http://www.zpenergy.com/modules.php?nam ... e&sid=2982

An international team of researchers led by Monash University has used chemicals found in plants to replicate a key process in photosynthesis paving the way to a new approach that uses sunlight to split water into hydrogen and oxygen.

Sustainable Agriculture - What Ants Knew 50 Million Years Before We Did
2008
http://www.scientificblogging.com/news_ ... ars_we_did


Learning from Nature: Flying creatures may help create aviation of future
http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/200 ... irds_x.htm
By Alan Levin, USA TODAY
"Learning the secret of flight from a bird was a good deal like learning the secret of magic from a magician." — Orville Wright

On the wings of a dragonfly; the way a dragonfly flies may inspire new aircraft designs.
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/On+the+wi ... -a03891381

To Innovate, Learn from Nature
http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/ti ... e_lea.html
September 10
Nature has had more than 3.8 billion years to perfect its survival strategy. Today, innovators and engineers are applying biomimicry practices to design products and solve engineering problems. For example, carpet manufacturer Interface created its nonglue carpet tiles by studying lizards’ feet.

Airliners could save fuel by taking a hint from birds flying in formation
June 1, 2009 BY EMMANUEL ROMERO
A Stanford simulation of how commercial airliners might fly in formation to save fuel.


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